“Jocelyn, you know, I just, I’m really uncomfortable with this conversation because you’re like actually spreading rumors that you don’t know anything about.”
The charge from NIH Director Jay Bhattacharya came during an uncomfortable and confusing interview with Science Magazine reporter Jocelyn Kaiser last week. The DisInformation Chronicle is releasing a recording of the interview and a transcript.
During almost 20 minutes of back and forth, Kaiser pressed Bhattacharya several times to account for canceled grants as well as news accounts of turmoil inside the agency, while Bhattacharya asked Kaiser to clarify and explain exactly what she was asking. Kaiser’s interview then ended up in two Science Magazine articles that falsely implied Bhattacharya misled Kaiser about a new policy on NIH grants.
Confusing, contentious exchange
Skipping about in a rambling, meandering path, much of the Kaiser interview concerned reports of problems that Bhattacharya claimed he had fixed in his first month as director. However, a proposed policy to ensure that subawards to foreign universities were better managed seemed to take center stage.
KAISER: Okay, so since you brought it up, kind of skipping around here, but so as you know, as you may not have seen the story. But we had heard it too, that there’s going to be a policy canceling collaborations, foreign collaborations.
BHATTACHARYA: No, that’s false.
KAISER: Is there going to be some sort of policy that…
BHATTACHARYA: There was a policy, there’s going to be policy on tracking subawards.
KAISER: What does it mean?
BHATTACHARYA: I mean, if you’re going to give a subaward, we should be able—the NIH and the government should be able see where the money’s going.
Later in the interview, Kaiser noted that Nature Magazine ran an article on a proposed NIH policy that reported all foreign grants might end.
“I mean, Nature also is spreading rumors, right?” Bhattacharya responded. “There’s no announced policy about, what did you say, like ‘halt foreign collaborations.’ Not true.”
Based upon unnamed sources but headlined as an “exclusive,” Nature Magazine reported that the NIH was threatening thousands of global health projects by ceasing foreign awards to laboratories and hospitals outside the United States. Further down in the piece, Nature reported that it was unclear from sources whether the policy “would apply to all research funds to non-US institutions or only ‘subawards’, which are NIH funds that a US researcher can give to an international collaborator to help complete a project.”
Confusion over whether the upcoming NIH policy would cover all research funds or just subawards continued throughout Science Magazine’s interview, with Bhattacharya telling Kaiser she would have to wait until the policy is announced. “There’s no intent to cancel the foreign collaborations, it’s just not true,” Bhattacharya said. “That’s just a rumor being spread falsely by Nature. And now apparently, I hope you don’t spread it.”
Shortly after the interview, the NIH published their new policy which only covers subawards. “NIH continues to support direct foreign awards,” the policy reads.
“’This is insane:’ New NIH policy on funding foreign scientists stirs outrage,” reported Science Magazine’ headline. Hinting to readers that Bhattacharya lied to Kaiser in his interview, Science Magazine falsely implied that Nature Magazine had reported the upcoming policy would only concern subawards.
Concerns about subaward changes grew earlier this week, with Nature reporting on an apparent draft of the policy on Wednesday, before it was finalized. NIH’s new director, Jayanta “Jay” Bhattacharya, dismissed the report as “rumors” in an interview with Science on Thursday morning, hours before he announced the new policy.
In a post on Bluesky, Science reporter Jon Cohen also implied that Bhattacharya had lied during the interview.
Hellbound and Down 